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Report 312
Report #312 Skillset: Night Skill: Brumetower Org: Hartstone Status: Rejected Jan 2010 Furies' Decision: We do not find this to be necessary. Problem: Brumetower is an ability which costs no shadows aside from intially dropping shadows in a room and no power, and blocks almost all forms movement into tree and sky elevation, 100% of the time. The issue arises from that it can cripple druid offense by blocking use of Treebane, and more importantly Sap with no drawbacks to the Night and with no set-up besides dropping shadows. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Allow raise cudgel to still work through through brumetower, allowing druids a way to get themselves and a target into the trees. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Change Brumetower to be like other blocking abilities and give it a percent chance of success. Possibly, casting Night User is not effected by it. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: Give Brumetower a power cost to limit it's use. 2-3p? Doesn't directly address the issue really but better then nothing. Player Comments: ---on 1/22 @ 20:37 writes: First, if the ability costs no shadows, but requires it, then it does in fact cost shadows. Second, only one brumetower per person. If they are going to sit there, you can wait and sit in the trees. You are not forced to fight the way the other person wants and vice versa. Third, Shadowdancers no longer have succumb. What this means is they should not be able to kill you without choke, the choke effect will have a better delay than sapping. ---on 1/22 @ 20:49 writes: The no cost was more referring use of brumetower doesn't hinder night users or prevent them from using any of the other abilities, should have worded that better. It takes barely a second to drop shadows and then raise brumetower, so even if I'm forcing them to move around, raising a new brumetower is easy to do. And night users includes Ebonguard, not just Shadowdancers, Warriors can use Brumetower too, and choke wouldn't be a necessity to them. And while Shadowdancers will probably have to use Choke to kill, I disagree that's a valid reason to let them so easily block use of Sap. ---on 1/22 @ 21:00 writes: And on further thought... you say I don't have to fight the way the person wants. But wouldn't waiting for said person to choke because I can't sap be basically that? ---on 1/23 @ 02:13 writes: Brumetower was already nerfed to only be one room only (per caster) for precisely this reason. Current situation is fine as-is-- demesne can be many rooms, if the person follows you and puts up a new Brumetower, the old one is gone. Further, brumetower doesn't knock you out of trees when used, so... Krellan's pretty correct. ---on 1/23 @ 18:45 writes: While not as bad as before the previous nerf, the current situation is not fine as is. The old Brumetower may drop, but that doesn't change that raising a new Brumetower can be done very quickly if the Night user moves or is forced out from under the old one, even faster if they happen to back to where the old one as, as shadows will likely still be released. And not getting knocked from trees means what? If Brumetower happened to be raised while both the druid and night user were already in the trees, the druid would need to saplock before the target managed to simply climb down, Brumetower does not effect movement out of sky or tree elevation, which it shouldn't. ---on 1/23 @ 20:44 writes: I adamantly disagree. So does the other Druid envoy (who is the only other guild that has such tree requirements). It is completely fine as-is. Brumetower is meant to not allow movement into trees, and that is what it does. You can go to another room. And, because it doesn't drop you out of trees when it's cast, you do even have a bit of room to maneuver if you are already there. You just can't get back up if you leave. ---on 1/23 @ 21:38 writes: Druid envoy who probably rarely has to fight against Brumetower. And just on that note, Brumetower doesn't really effect any other guild, besides possibly Aeromancers. If you're in the trees already when Brumetower is up, where you going to maneuver to? You can only climb down at that point, can't walk out of it or pull somebody into it with you. And once again, raising a new brumetower in another room can be done very quickly and easily. Only takes dropping shadows which has a very short EQ(I think under a second, not positive) and then Brumetower can be raised. Being able to 100% block use of a druid's most important ability in a room for no cost besides a single shadow with 2 quick actions is not okay. ---on 1/24 @ 03:25 writes: Using Krellan's logic from above, if a Shadowdancer is going to have to choke to kill the druid, then regardless of whether or not said SD uses Brumetower, he or she is going to be using shadows. Therefore, the cost for shadows in this case seems like a potentially weak argument. As to the logic of sap vs. choke: Sap doesn't hinder the druid, so while the delay may be less, it's not the same thing. All in all, I can understand the concern. I think solution #1 is the best because it addresses a specific druid problem with a specific druid solution. Also, I find it very silly that the "master of the forest" cannot somehow override a blob of shadows. ---on 1/24 @ 04:57 writes: Brumetower was made to be one-room only. It does what it is intended to. Putting holes in it is... well... basically just an attempt to neuter a skill that is not liked, heh. It is not as if Krellan (the other Druid envoy) does not have to "deal with brumetower" as there are, in fact, situations in which it must be dealt with. The current restriction on Brumetower is that it can only be used in one room. I am fine with giving it a 1-2p cost, -if- it can be cast in multiple rooms once more (just like other room effects). The skill is fine as is. If it is to be nerfed more by giving it a power cost (as other room effects), it should function like other room effects and be able to be cast more than once. But there is no way that it needs to start going, "Hey, this skill stops all movement into the skies and trees. Except, oh, this skill. Randomly." ---on 1/24 @ 05:11 writes: Because, as currently, Hartstone Druids have: Headbutt, beastkick, and even gust enchants to get someone out of the brumetowered room. Blacktalon have the latter two. Beastkick, follow, raise cudgel, and you're guaranteed that there's no brumetower in the new room at present. ---on 1/24 @ 05:29 writes: As Krellan posted, if it is indeed necessary for a Shadowdancer to use choke, we can assume wherever they fight, they will be dropping shadows. Where they drop shadows, they can instantly raise a new brumetower. Therefore, it's not feasible for a druid in any real way to keep a Shadowdancer from using a skill that 100% prevents sap. Moving them around doesn't do much because when they move, they will likely just release more shadows. ---on 1/24 @ 05:48 writes: Jael, you're forgetting that beast kick consumes no balance. You're also forgetting that raise cudgel stuns. Even if the person releases shadows instantly, beastkick / move / raise cudgel beats it out. Especially if you do it right at a demesne tick so that they can't do it immediately anyways (currently you might raise cudgel just at a demesne tick. Toss in a beast kick / move before it instead, for example, and you're assured that there is no brumetower in the new room). ---on 1/24 @ 05:58 writes: I'm not sure I follow your point. Sap locks require a significant setup to accomplish. Beast kicking someone into a room following up by raise cudgel doesn't do anything special. The person will have time to climb down, release shadows, and then use brumetower again. I think you are missing a key point in this discussion: Sap is the MAJOR offensive tactic for druids. It should not be possible to so casually prevent it while you setup for choke. Beast kick also doesn't work if the target is prone so trying to beast kick someone paralysed will fail. The tactic you provided is therefore invalid. ---on 1/24 @ 06:22 writes: While that combo could place a druid and the night user into the trees, following it up with a successful sap lock before the night user is able to climb down and raise a new brumetower is really, not that feasible. Sap lock takes a careful set up and timing to be successful. As well, returning brumetower to multiple rooms even at a power cost, is absolutely not acceptable, especially with the now diminished demesne sizes would be far to simple to cover an entire demesne with brumetowers. ---on 1/24 @ 06:35 writes: Not at all, Jael. Lehki states that the combination would work. It requires just a little more timing-- at the moment when you would raise cudgel, you would instead beast kick, follow, and raise cudgel all at the exact same time (neither beast kick nor move take equilibrium/balance, so you can do all actions at once). Finally: Putting holes in Brumetower / further nerfing it when it has already been nerfed is unacceptable to me as well, Lehki, without giving it something back. If you want to give it a power cost, let it work in multiple rooms again. ---on 1/24 @ 06:43 writes: Jael, the beast kick not working on prone targets only refers to true prone, not p in prompt prone i.e. sprawled on the ground prone. I had my fair share against brumetower too since I was Hartstone for a year and this was with the multiple room brumetower. This is definitely manageable. The shadowdancer will eventually run out of shadows if they choose to sit in the same room and recast brumetower. There is also beast gust as an alternative to beast kick which works regardless of the target being proned or not ---on 1/24 @ 06:44 writes: Also, I am more preferable to changing sap than to changing brumetower. I think sap needs a little something anyways, but it's a bit difficult to come up with a solid idea. ---on 1/24 @ 06:58 writes: Oh, also another more simpler solution came to mind. Just make it so a Night user cannot recast brumetower until the old one has faded. That's if any nerf needs to be made at all ---on 1/24 @ 07:23 writes: Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't a cauldron hold over 200 shadows? That's a more plentiful reserve than power imo. I think Brumetower is a fairly balanced skill against everybody but druids, so the solution ought to be druid specific. Solution 1. ---on 1/24 @ 07:33 writes: I'm not trying to say that it's impossible to get a sap lock against a night user making heavy use of brumetower. The ease of completely blocking use of sap in a room with almost no limitations besides shadows, no limitations to the night user unless they like to climb or fly to escape and can be set up in a second is an issue that needs addressing of some sort and is not fine as is. ---on 1/24 @ 15:43 writes: But that's the point, Lehki. It is blocked in -a- room. One single room. Which still leaves you options to deal with it. You've got those options, you just don't want to use them. 1) Leave it as-is, or 2) Give it a 1-2p cost and let it be cast in multiple rooms again (just as other room skills), with the power cost now being the limiter instead of once per room. ---on 1/24 @ 16:20 writes: A single room that can be changed in a moments notice. And with a power cost that low, multi-room Brumetower would just be back to the old issue of being able to completely cover a demesne in brumetowers, especially with the now smaller demesne size. ---on 1/24 @ 17:07 writes: A "moment's notice" that can be pre-empted by using the skills at your disposal to beat them to the punch. Especially since theirs takes actions that use up equilibrium while the counter uses none, until the "raise cudgel" command... which you would be using anyways. I'm feeling rather firm about this-- if you want to give it a power cost, let it be cast in multiple rooms again, just like any other room effect skill that people have to either deal with or move around. Otherwise, leave it as-is. It would be fine in either respect. Under no circumstance should we start adding holes to the skill, however. ---on 1/24 @ 17:26 writes: No other movement blocking ability has a 100% success rate aside from GreatPent, a 10p trans skill. That beastkick, raise cudgel combo relies on 2 successful forced movements in a row for one brief chance to sap if the Night user just brumetowers again. I'm feeling just as firm that it needs some direct counter or nerf, and that allowing multi-room brumetowers again is a bad idea. ---on 1/24 @ 18:01 writes: It has a direct counter. One-room-only. Use the skills at your disposal to get around it. ---on 1/25 @ 02:45 writes: Well, i mean basic walls is 100% movement blocking ability to move (direction). Same with blocking firm. Barrier is also 100% success in blocking the movement that it specifies. There are a lot of abilities which block 100% of the time, the movement it is -supposed- to block ---on 1/25 @ 06:22 writes: I could have phrased that better, I suppose, but walls and firm blocking work on only one type of movement and can be bypassed or even removed with a number of abilities and this is not the case with brumetower. I'll admit Barrier slipped my mind before, but it's also a 10p skill, at 50% mythical, and can be dropped with a disruption scroll. ---on 1/26 @ 17:41 writes: What? Wasn't this ability already downgraded to be one-room only? I would suggest looking up Narsrim, Lehki. By no means is Brumetower a complete lockdown of your offense. You still have passive effects working in Choke, and Choke SHOULD be mostly in your advantage compared to the Shadowdancers. Narsrim used Thornrend famously as Maesin, and also used embedded runes extremely well against Shadowdancers. I'm also starting to get really agitated with the constant Night envoys for abilities that were already downgraded, but now it seems people want to bring the entire skillset down into uselessness. ---on 1/26 @ 23:57 writes: The point of this envoy report has nothing to do with what exceptional, creative fighters can accomplish. It also has nothing to do with the mishaps various people have experienced where choke backfired. The bottom line is should the Night skillset have a 100% counter to Sap. As this is the chief offensive tactic of druids, then druids should have a counter. ---on 1/26 @ 23:57 writes: I wouldn't quite jump to say that giving raise cudgel the ability to override Brumetower somehow makes the entire Night skillset or even Brumetower itself useless. The major concern people have always had with the Night skillset that is slowly being addressed is the array of abilities that have no cure or no counter. Hence envoy reports for Succumb (now in Moon), Choke, Brumetower, Longnight, etc. Personally, I think that addressing a druid problem with a druid specific solution is nothing short of ideal. ---on 1/27 @ 03:35 writes: I think 'just fight in choke' is kind of a silly argument against this, and a bit besides the point. I don't believe I ever claimed that Brumetower completely shuts down all druid offense, but that it has a really big impact by blocking sap in a room, has no direct counter, and has a negligible effect and cost for the night user. And would allowing one active ability that is resistible really THAT big of a nerf? Type MORE to continue reading. (77% shown)